Minutes of the DPTAC Main Committee Meeting:
07 June 2007
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Chair:
Neil Betteridge
DPTAC Members:
Pravin Amin
Ann Bates
Vidur Dindayal
David Finnegan
Roger Hewitt
Tomi Jones
Marilyn Lister
Nicola McLeish
Wendy Morrell
Katherine Phipps
Dai Powell
Keith Richards
Carol Thomas
Observers:
Nigel Dotchin - Department for Transport Accessibility and Equalities Unit
Tim May - Department for Transport Accessibility and Equalities Unit
Barbara Vincent - Department for Work & Pensions
Will Bee - Disability Rights Commission
Natalie Salmon - Disability Rights Commission
Emma Sinclair - Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland
Kerry Wall - Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland
Guests:
Liz Crawshaw - Consultants for Disability Rights Commission
Zara Todd - Equality 2025
In Attendance:
Andy Kirby - Secretary
Sandra Duncan - Secretariat
Gary Kemp - Secretariat
Michael Parsons - Secretariat
Anthony Youngman - Support Worker
David Hewitt - BSL Interpreter
Gill Rutherford - BSL Interpreter
Norma White - Palantypist
Apologies:
Sean Bolton - DPTAC Member
Jean Dunlop - DPTAC Member
Judith Jesky - DPTAC Member
Grahame Lawson - DPTAC Member
Alan Norton - DPTAC Member
Tom Pey - DPTAC Member
Richard West - DPTAC Member
Gregory Kerr - Department for Regional Development Northern Ireland
Lynne Duff - Scottish Executive
Mike Spearing - Welsh Assembly
Agenda item 1: Welcome, introductions and apologies
1. DPTAC Chair Neil Betteridge welcomed members, officials and observers to the first DPTAC Main Committee meeting of the financial year. Neil extended a special welcome to Zara Todd, member of Equality 2025, who would brief members on what the organisation had been doing.
2. Neil explained that the main items of business for the day were to sign off DPTAC's response to the Department for Transport's Disability Equality Scheme and the specification for an on board aircraft, and to review the Communications Strategy.
3. He reassured members that there would no reduction in the time that he would make available for DPTAC as a result of his appointment as the Patient and Public Champion for the 18 week waiting time initiative for the Department of Health. Members congratulated him on his appointment.
Agenda item 2: Minutes of previous Main Committee meeting
4. Members agreed the minutes of the Main Committee meeting held on 8 March 2007, subject to amendments already circulated with the meeting papers. The Chair asked the Secretariat to arrange for the minutes of the previous Main Committee meeting to be placed on the DPTAC website.
Action point 1: Secretariat to arrange for the minutes of the 8 March 2007 Main Committee meeting to be placed on the DPTAC website.
Agenda item 3: Matters arising not elsewhere on the agenda
5. There were no matters arising that were not otherwise on the agenda.
Agenda item 4: Local Transport Bill consultation
6. Neil Betteridge reminded members of the current Local Transport Bill consultation which had been sent out recently. The draft bill was wide ranging, covering buses, road pricing, community transport, enhancements to rail services provided by local councils, the governance of transport functions and the payment of DPTAC members, which was now proposed in writing for the first time.
7. Dai Powell welcomed the broad sweep of the proposals, and noted that there were some detailed considerations, for example in relation to bus services, that provided cause for concern.
8. Members particularly welcomed the proposals for the payment of members, and shared the Chair's concern about the impact that accepting a paid position might have on the benefits of someone claiming a disability benefit, even if they declined any payment.
9. Nigel Dotchin said that he would ensure that DPTAC was invited to the consultation event on the Local Transport Bill that was being held on 5 July.
10. Members noted that while the consultation response date was 7 September, the House of Commons Transport Committee was carrying out an investigation into the Bill. The Committee had asked DPTAC for written evidence, and might also ask for a witness to appear before them. Members agreed that Dai Powell, supported by Nicola McLeish and David Finnegan, would lead on the written Memorandum for the Transport Committee. They would identify areas of concern to explore more fully in DPTAC's full response to the consultation. The Chair would work with them to present oral evidence, if required. Members agreed to consider volunteering to help with this important consultation, and Grahame Lawson had already offered to contribute on road pricing and governance issues.
Action Point 2: Dai Powell to sign off written Memorandum to the Transport Committee, and to lead on preparing response to the draft Local Transport Bill consultation.
Action Point 3: Members to consider supporting Dai Powell and Grahame Lawson in drafting the final response to the draft Local Transport Bill consultation.
Action Point 4: DPTAC to take part in consultation event on the Local Transport Bill.
Agenda item 5: Response to Department for Transport's Disability Equality Scheme 2007-10
11. Neil Betteridge paid tribute to the work of Grahame Lawson in developing the draft response to the Department for Transport's Disability Equality Scheme, and to the secretariat for supporting him. Unfortunately, Grahame was not able to present the work himself.
12. Members noted that on 4 December 2006 the secretariat had represented them at the launch of the scheme by the Permanent Secretary. The Spring 2007 round of Working Groups had generated comments on aspects of the scheme relevant to their work, and Grahame had reviewed the scheme in the light of those comments, and also in relation to the schemes of other relevant departments.
13. Will Bee drew members' attention to the Disability Rights Commission's response to the Department for Transport's Disability Equality Scheme. In contrast to DPTAC's response, the Commission's perspective had focussed on compliance. It had referred to the lack of evidence gathering, the poor link between engagement with disabled people and the actions proposed, and the need for disaggregated data on the transport of disabled people.
14. Members agreed the draft response without change. It would be the starting point for discussions between the Department and DPTAC, rather than a formally published consultation response.
Action point 5: Chair to send the response to the Permanent Secretary of the Department for Transport, and copy it to Permanent Secretaries of other government departments mentioned in it.
Action Point 6: Members to consider supporting Grahame Lawson in taking forward dialogue with the Department for Transport on the Disability Equality Duty.
Agenda item 6: Presentation from Equality 2025
15. Zara Todd, a member of Equality 2025, gave a presentation about the organisation. She outlined its role as a UK wide body with 22 members (plus one more to be appointed soon) all of whom were disabled people, and most of whom were paid for their work. Equality 2025 had been meeting monthly all round the country while it got started, but would move to bi-monthly meetings in the summer. It took as its starting point the 2005 report on Improving the Life Chances of Disabled People. It had set up nine working groups including independent living; early years, education, children and young people and transitions; benefits and employment; human rights, justice and citizenship. Some members had specific geographical responsibilities for the countries of the United Kingdom, but members did not represent specific organisations or impairment groups. Zara looked forward to exploring how Equality 2025 and DPTAC could work effectively together.
16. In answer to questions from members, Zara explained that:
- Equality 2025 had not so far appointed observers to its meetings, and its members still needed to take a view on this and other procedural matters. It had taken presentations, such as Rainbow Ripples on disability and sexual orientation, at a meeting in Leeds.
- Minutes of meetings had not been published to date on the website, and the Equality 2025 secretariat would advise DPTAC when this had been done.
- No British Sign Language (BSL) speaker had been successful in the initial appointment process. However, Ministers did not appoint members to represent particular impairment groups. Having secured agreement to appoint a member from the BSL community, Equality 2025 had undertaken a further recruitment process and the appointment of a BSL user would be announced shortly.
- The membership of Equality 2025 included faith communities, minority ethnic groups and a range of ages.
- Transport had not hitherto been a particularly significant issue for Equality 2025, but if it did arise, it would sit within the work stream of the working group on independent living.
17. Zara asked what was being done to develop international standards for air travel by disabled people. The Chair of the Aviation Working Group, Keith Richards, outlined initiatives including regulations on the rights of disabled people travelling by air, the Air Access Code and JAR-Ops, and agreed to send a briefing note with further details.
18. Zara also noted that Equality 2025 was still finding its feet and asked if DPTAC could offer any advice on how to be taken seriously by government. The Chair and members acknowledged that DPTAC's 22 year track record was of itself a help. As well as members, DPTAC benefited from a skilled and knowledgeable secretariat, and had established good relationships with ministers and with civil servants. Its advice was regarded as reasonable and practical. Neil pointed to the recent strategy review, where members had decided to prioritise earlier involvement in policy development, as well as taking part in formal consultations. This was already bearing fruit in some policy areas.
19. In answer to a question from Zara about DPTAC's engagement with disabled people, Neil Betteridge pointed to the recent consultation on the draft strategy. Zara noted that Equality 2025 planned to set up a system for involving larger numbers of individual disabled people in its work.
20. The Chair noted that the government was consulting on a bill that included a provision for DPTAC members to be paid. He asked about Equality 2025's experience of members who were in receipt of state benefits having those benefits affected by the receipt, or indeed merely the offer, of payments. Zara explained that the Office for Disability Issues was aware of the problem but had not yet been able to resolve it.
21. The Chair thanked Zara for her presentation and her answers to questions. He looked forward to effective working between DPTAC and Equality 2025.
Action point 7: DPTAC to send Equality 2025 information on international work on standards in relation to the travel of disabled people by air.
Action Point 8: Secretariat to explore with Equality 2025 the potential for a concordat or other formalisation of working relations.
Action point 9: Equality 2025 to advise DPTAC when minutes of meetings have been posted on the website.
Agenda item 7: Reports from DPTAC Chair and Working Group Chairs
22. Members considered the regular reports from the Chair of DPTAC and the Chairs of Working Groups. DPTAC Chair Neil Betteridge drew attention this comments on the Capability Review, a thoroughgoing review of the work of the Department for Transport. The review would be reporting soon, and he hoped to have an opportunity to discuss it with the new Permanent Secretary.
23. David Finnegan asked about progress on developing accessibility regulations for taxis, and suggested combinations of incentives that might help to improve the accessibility of taxis across the country. Neil Betteridge explained that he and Sir Bert Massie had sought a meeting with the Minister to discuss this. The Minister had declined the request on the grounds that Ministers were still considering the appropriate way forward. Neil explained that he and Sir Bert Massie would write again to say that this was precisely why it was important that they met her. He suggested that David should advise the Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle Working Group of his more detailed suggestions. Ann Bates raised the issue of larger cars being described as accessible taxis while there continued to be uncertainty as to future vehicle accessibility standards.
24. Wendy Morrell and Roger Hewitt raised the issue of the new Olympic logo. The film presentation of the logo on television had allegedly triggered a number of episodes of photosensitive epilepsy, and there was widespread concern about the clarity of the logo to disabled people, particularly in its various coloured versions. Roger Hewitt noted that some individuals with Usher's Syndrome had commented on its inaccessibility.
25. Katherine Phipps said that she had attended the launch of the brand. It was intended to be far more than a logo, and to be used in a number of different ways, including in animated formats, over a number of years. The logo was only relevant to DPTAC's work insofar as it would be used in wayfinding, and this was an area where DPTAC had recommended further research at a recent meeting with the Olympic Delivery Authority. Neil Betteridge noted that DPTAC would have to ensure that its comments on the topic were formulated in terms of its transport remit.
26. In the absence of Grahame Lawson, Andy Kirby and Sandra Duncan gave an update on the Blue Badge Scheme. They differentiated between the current government consultation on some specific aspects of the Badge, notably in respect of children under two with bulky medical equipment; and the longer term review drawing on recent research and in those DPTAC recommendations that had not yet been acted upon.
27. Keith Richards supplemented his report on aviation, describing a new research initiative by the European Union looking at damage to wheelchairs during air travel. Responsibility and compensation varied depending on where damage took place. The Department for Transport was also involved in this work. In answer to a question from David Finnegan, Keith clarified that, at present, anything stowed away from the passenger was regarded as baggage rather than medical equipment.
28. Ann Bates described a recent meeting with Mark Lambirth, Director of Rail Strategy and Finance, to discuss references to disability in the forthcoming white paper, which would set out the High Level Operating Statement for rail services. She had noted that Access for All funding in no way removed the need for further work by the rail industry to meet its obligation to disabled people under current legislation. This was precisely the kind of preconsultation that DPTAC had been seeking, and it looked likely to help create a white paper that was far more inclusive than would otherwise have been the case.
Agenda item 8: Progress Report on 2007-08 Work Programme
29. Members reviewed the new Work Programme for the first time. DPTAC Chair Neil Betteridge noted that 20 of the 26 tasks were under way and that four that had not started were awaiting decisions from the Accessibility and Equalities Unit on funding.
30. He updated the report, saying that now 19 consultations were under way, with six already completed this year. This increased volume was in part because, as members agreed when they decided on the strategy, DPTAC was engaging more in preconsultation.
31. Ann Bates Chair of the Rail Working Group, noted that, in respect of Task 21, she had been exploring the exciting potential for a co-funding arrangement with the Rail Standards and Safety Board to develop guidance on the use of ramps for boarding.
Agenda item 9. Observer update
32. Neil Betteridge explained that members had hoped to make better use of observers by inviting them, from time to time, to report briefly on what was happening in their areas of concern, particularly the observers from different parts of the UK. However, in view of the apologies received from the observers for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland this did not seem the right time to do so. Lynne Duff of the Scottish Executive had submitted a written report which had been circulated in advance to members. Mike Spearing from Wales had indicated that he hoped to have progress to report at the next meeting on the development of a Passenger Transport User Committee for Wales. Barbara Vincent from the Department for Work and Pensions had agreed to make a report in writing.
33. Emma Sinclair, Secretary of the Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland (MACS), gave a report. She said that MACS had been liaising with the DPTAC secretariat on how to respond to the consultation on the enforcement of regulation on the rights of disabled people travelling by air. MACS had also been developing guidance on demand responsive transport, to supplement that which the Scottish Executive had produced for the regional transport partnerships. In answer to a question, she explained that the relationship between the Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland and the Passenger Transport Users Committee for Scotland had not yet been formalised.
34. In answer to a question Emma stated that no local authority in Scotland had yet used new powers to increase the Blue Badge fee to up to £20.
Agenda item 10: Accessibility and Equalities Unit report
35. Nigel Dotchin introduced the regular report from the Accessibility and Equalities Unit and took questions on a number of topics including the following.
36. On the lifting of Part 3 from maritime transport, he noted that a draft proposal was overdue from Brussels, but still expected shortly.
37. On kite marking wheelchairs, AEU had met manufacturers and the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, but there was no progress to report yet.
38. On rail, he noted that a meeting was to be held later in the week of the Railways for All technical and steering groups which would discuss changes to the Stations Code and the Disabled Persons Protection Policy system for stations. Ann Bates, Chair of the Rail Working Group, was disappointed that she was not able to attend. The group would do the best it could to comment, but it was not satisfactory that the meeting was being held without any direct representation from disabled people.
39. On the appointment of members, Nigel reported that the database of members was set up and the appointment process would start in good time to make appointments before the end the year. All current members whose appointments were to expire at the end of the year would be contacted to establish whether they wished to reapply.
40. Nigel noted that DPTAC was awaiting decisions on research funding for four of its Work Programme tasks. The Accessibility and Equalities Unit now had its own research budget, so there was less potential for overspend being recouped from underspend elsewhere. The proposals were on the way to the Chief Scientist and then to the Minister.
41. As far as audiovisual announcements on buses were concerned, the Department for Transport was awaiting the result of the roll out of system in London. The Minister had discussed the issue recently and was awaiting a brief with more information. Bus Quality Partnerships as proposed in the draft Local Transport Bill might well be one way of delivering these. Will Bee noted that the Disability Rights Commission's guidance on buses would advise that drivers should announce bus stops in response to requests by disabled people, but this would not require them to make announcements if they were not asked to do so. Disabled people were reluctant to seek remedies through the courts, as the process was cumbersome and costly.
42. Ann Bates noted the difficulty for passengers in wheelchairs to know where they were going, when they were in backward facing wheelchair spaces, and often unable to get near enough to the driver to ask for an announcement to be made. Roger Hewitt confirmed that many deaf people found it hard to ask for the announcements that they needed, and the systems not only had to be in place but also to be working each day. Members found visual messages to "listen for announcements" particularly unhelpful.
43. Dai Powell noted that the Bus, Coach and Community Transport Working Group would be trying out the London announcements in the autumn and would report back. David Finnegan suggested that tests outside London might also be appropriate. Tomi Jones noted that in Ceredigion they had been experimenting with bilingual audiovisual information, and that the audible element was less popular with drivers and passengers. One solution they were considering had been an induction loop serving dedicated passenger seats.
44. Kerry Wall noted that there were no plans to introduce such systems in Scotland beyond where they were already used. However, the issue could be reopened if necessary.
45. In conclusion, DPTAC Chair Neil Betteridge noted that the issue of seeking amendments to the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations had not gone away, and DPTAC would keep it in reserve for future recommendation.
46. Members agreed that they found a simple update in a shorter report each quarter from the Accessibility and Equalities Unit as useful as the current full narrative. The Chair would work with the Unit on the format of the new report.
Action point 10: Chair to work with the Accessibility and Equalities Unit on the format of a shorter updating quarterly report.
Agenda item 11: Disability Rights Commission presentation
47. The Chair invited Will Bee of the Disability Rights Commission and Liz Crawshaw of their consultants on the Gojo campaign to report on their work on encouraging disabled people to make more use of public tremor. (The presentation about the campaign is attached at Annex A.)
48. Answering questions Will and Liz explained that relevant Passenger Transport Executives had been fully engaged in the campaign. They hoped that the Commission for Equalities and Human Rights might repeat the campaign in a year or so, as it could easily be adapted to other sectors in society which might respond to encouragement to make more use of public transport.
Agenda item 12: Review of DPTAC Communications Strategy
49. Neil Betteridge invited members to review the Communications Strategy in the light of the development of the 007-10 DPTAC Strategy signed off at the previous meeting. The Communications Strategy was driven by the overall strategy, and the current draft had been based on the previous communications strategy, updated to reflect DPTAC's revised aim and objectives, using direct first person language (as in the DPTAC Strategy), removing references to the built environment remit and taking account of the Disability Equality Duty and Freedom of Information legislation.
50. Ann Bates noted that the Transport Direct website funded by the Department for Transport referred people directly to DPTAC's Door to Door website on accessibility issues. Vidur Dindayal asked DPTAC to give further consideration to holding meetings outside of London.
51. The Communications Strategy was agreed as drafted.
Action point 11: Chair and secretariat to consider holding a Main Meeting outside London to meet with local disability groups and inform members of the outcome.
Action point 12: Secretariat to place communication strategy on the DPTAC website.
Agenda item 13: Agreement of specification for On Board Aircraft Wheelchair
52. Keith Richards, Chair of the Aviation Working Group, introduced the draft wheelchair specification for member approval. He noted that in 2004 DPTAC had noted that many complaints from disabled air passengers had concerned on-board wheelchairs. DPTAC had felt it was timely to produce a 'definitive' specification which would give guidance to airlines and manufacturers, and give disabled people confidence in the provision of a suitable chair.
53. Keith paid tribute to the work of the members of the Aviation Working Group, the industry members who had helped develop the specification, the disabled people who had helped to test it out, and the consultant Graham Love. He reminded members that it was a specification for the essential characteristics of a wheelchair, not a prescriptive design for the wheelchair itself, and that DPTAC needed to not over-specify the wheelchair in detail.
54. He noted that the main considerations were that the wheelchair would be comfortable, have integrity without features that could become detached and lost, and be robust in the event of turbulence, bearing in mind that disabled people should not have to sit in the chair for long periods of time.
55. Wendy Morrell noted that the specification would need to be carefully publicised, so that disabled people did not receive the mistaken impression that toilets would also become fully accessible to all disabled people at the same time that the chair came into use. Keith agreed and explained that the specification for the wheelchair was being cross-referred to that for the on-board toilet that DPTAC had also been finalising. He explained that some companies, including Virgin that had helped to develop the wheelchair specification were already making use of it.
56. The on-board wheelchair specification was agreed as drafted.
Action point 13: Aviation Working Group Chair and Secretariat to proceed with publication and launch of on-board wheelchair specification.
Agenda item 14: Any other business
57. Neil Betteridge explained that he and the secretariat would soon start arranging the dates for the next year of DPTAC meetings. They would do their best to avoid school holidays, meetings being too bunched together, and Working Group meetings being too close to Main Committee meetings. However, there were constraints from summer and Christmas periods when it was not practical to have meetings.
Action point 14: Neil Betteridge and Secretariat to draft and circulate proposed calendar of meetings.
58. Neil thanked members for their contributions to the meeting and wished them a safe journey.
Dates of Main Committee meetings 2007
13 September
13 December
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