Minutes of the DPTAC Main Committee Meeting:
13 September 2007
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Chair:
Neil Betteridge
DPTAC Members:
Pravin Amin
Ann Bates
Sean Bolton
Vidur Dindayal
David Finnegan
Roger Hewitt
Tomi Jones
Marilyn Lister
Grahame Lawson
Wendy Morrell
Alan Norton
Katherine Phipps
Dai Powell
Judith Jesky
Richard West
Keith Richards
Observers:
Nigel Dotchin - Department for Transport Accessibility and Equalities Unit
Jimi Adeleye - Department for Transport Accessibility and Equalities Unit
Barbara Vincent - Department for Work and Pensions
Will Bee - Disability Rights Commission
Emma Sinclair - Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland
Lynne Duff - Mobility Division, Scottish Government
Gregor Kerr - Department for Regional Development, Northern Ireland
In Attendance:
Andy Kirby - DPTAC Secretary
Fatma Caffer - DPTAC Secretariat
Gary Kemp - DPTAC Secretariat
Michael Parsons - DPTAC Secretariat
Sam Francis - Department for Transport
Anthony Youngman - Support Worker
David Hewitt - BSL Interpreter
Gill Rutherford - BSL Interpreter
Norma White - Palantypist
Apologies:
Jean Dunlop - DPTAC Member
Nicola McLeish - DPTAC Member
Carol Thomas - DPTAC Member
Tom Pey - DPTAC Member
Mike Spearing - Welsh Assembly
Agenda item 1: Welcome, introductions and apologies
1. DPTAC Chair Neil Betteridge welcomed members, officials and observers to the third DPTAC meeting of the calendar year. Neil extended a special welcome to Sir Bert Massie, Chair of the Disability Rights Commission who would discuss improvements to transport accessibility over the last twenty years or so and his hopes for the future.
2. On behalf of the committee, Neil formally thanked Sandra Duncan for her commitment and enthusiasm towards her work for DPTAC during the nine years she had been at the Secretariat before leaving for a new job on promotion to the Maritime Policy Division of Department for Transport.
3. Neil also informed members that this would be Andy Kirby's last meeting as Secretary of DPTAC as he too was leaving for pastures new. Neil thanked Andy for his sterling work as Secretary.
4. Finally on Secretariat issues, Neil welcomed Sam Francis who was due to replace Sandra Duncan in a week's time.
Agenda item 2: Presentation by Sir Bert Massie
5. Neil mentioned that the agenda had been slightly revised to take full advantage of the opportunity to listen to Sir Bert Massie and allow sufficient time for discussion afterwards.
6. Bert began his presentation with a brief description of the position of disabled people in the early 1980's. Work had started on developing a wheelchair accessible taxi but elsewhere the picture was bleak, with little consideration to the needs of disabled people in relation to maritime and aviation. Dropped pavements were at a very early stage of consideration.
7. In the 1980's the emphasis had been on physical infrastructure and the operation of transport systems. Until the Disability Discrimination Bill in 1995 no thought had been given by government to providing disabled people with individual rights. Even then the transport sector was exempt. The subsequent amendments adding Section 5 to the Act had been made in the House of Lords and had often met Government opposition.
8. But now disabled people were travelling more by public transport. They no longer necessarily needed to plan their journeys several weeks in advance.
9. The Disability Equality Duty had changed the entire picture. It placed a duty on local authorities to think about, and involve, disabled people in all of its policies. However, disabled people needed to be vigilant as the duty is threatened by Government's proposals on the Discrimination Law Review. The consultation paper on Single Equality Bill had received such unanimous opposition from disability groups that Sir Bert Massie thought it was likely to be substantially amended.
10. Looking at legislation we now had the Equality Duty; the lifting of the Part 3 exemption of the Disability Discrimination Act from land based public transport; accessibility regulations for trains and buses; European Union regulations for air travel, and hopefully similar regulation for the shipping industry.
11. For all that progress we still had not secured accessibility regulations for taxis. These had first been suggested ten years previously, and were still nowhere near the statute book. There were many major towns and cities in the UK he was not able to visit by train because he was unable to use the taxis when he arrived there. It was vital to maintain pressure on the Department for Transport to regulate for accessible taxis.
12. The Government was reluctant to legislate for the aviation and maritime sectors because they were international services. But this was to ignore the increasing number of internal flights and the importance of domestic ferries in the UK, particularly in Scotland. On the other hand, cruise ships were accessible due to American legislation.
13. What was now the Blue Badge had been introduced in 1971 and overnight improved the mobility of disabled people. Increasing abuse of the Blue Badge and illegal parking in the bays put these gains under threat. Although Department for Transport had recently announced improvements to the scheme, without strict enforcement it would fall into disrepute.
14. Sir Bert warned against complacency. The disabled community had to be aware of the dangers of industry and civil servants chipping away at recent accessibility gains. As an example, he cited the threat to remove an accessible toilet from one design of train. In addition, Sir Bert advised that vigilance was required to prevent lowering standards in the guise of setting consistent European standards. After all, where European standards were lower than existing domestic requirements there was no requirement for UK standards to be lowered to conform to European standards.
15. Sir Bert advised members that even equality legislation was under threat. If the Government was going to introduce legislation then we should be looking for substantial improvements. The Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland was also under threat and he asked what was being done to safeguard it?
16. Continuing the theme of threats, Sir Bert thought road pricing was a potential danger. Disabled people tended to be poor and would be unable to afford to pay the charge and unlike others often did not have realistic alternative transport options. Therefore, it was vital to retain disabled people's exemption from paying the charge.
17. Another challenge was to think of old problems in a new way. For example many disabled people opposed speed bumps and other traffic calming measures because of the discomfort caused by driving over them. But maybe they could be more successfully challenged on economic grounds. Ambulances were often delayed and damaged by driving over the humps - at a significant cost to the taxpayer in repair, replacement, and the cost of further injury to the people inside.
18. The Disability Rights Commission would disappear in two weeks' time. Bert thought that it had been successful in promoting accessibility. Their recent GOJO campaign had been more effective than anticipated. They had also taken several high profile legal cases against operators. Notably the aptly named railway case of Mr Roads and the celebrated Ryan Air case.
19. The Disability Rights Commission had been trying to persuade the Equality and Human Rights Commission, its successor body that it needed to pursue similar cases through the courts.
20. Future issues were likely to centre round dignity, human rights and responsibilities. Disabled people living at home would in future need improved planning, better transport systems and an accessible built environment.
21. Sir Bert summed up by saying that in terms of accessibility we had come a long way but the battle had not been won yet.
22. Neil thanked Sir Bert for his no holds barred presentation. On behalf of DPTAC he also thanked him for all his work over the past five years and wished him all the best for future.
23. During the subsequent question and answer session, Ann Bates clarified the position of the accessible toilet being withdrawn by one train company. The toilet had been located in a carriage that was inaccessible to wheelchair users and as such served no useful purpose.
24. Neil asked how in future DPTAC could work with, and support the work of, the new Equality and Human Rights Commission given Sir Trevor Phillips' comment that he did not want the new body to work in stand specific ways.
25. Sir Bert shared Neil's concerns. The new Equality and Human Rights Commission would have a Disability Committee, chaired by Dame Jane Campbell. Looking at a range of issues including resources. The original justification from Ministers for the single body was that many people experienced multiple discrimination on a range of grounds, and therefore a single rights body was needed. However experience showed that if court cases were to be successful they needed to be based on specific discrimination, which would often straddle other grounds, such as being discriminated against on religious/ sexual/ disability grounds.
26. Neil remained concerned that the new Commission would be perceived as more remote than the DRC.
Action point 1: Chair to write to Sir Bert Massie thanking him for his presentation.
Agenda item 3: Minutes of the previous meeting
27. Members agreed the minutes of the Main Committee held on the 13 June 2007, subject to amendments already circulated with the meeting papers. The Chair asked the Secretariat to arrange for the minutes of the previous meeting to be placed on the DPTAC website.
Action point 2: Secretariat to arrange for the minutes of the 13 June 2007 Main Committee to be placed on the DPTAC website.
Agenda item 4: Matters arising not elsewhere on the agenda
28. Neil advised members that Action Points 9 &10 related to Equality 2025. The onus was on them with regard to agreeing a concordat as well as posting minutes of their meetings and other papers on their website.
29. At item 11, Neil reminded members they had agreed to explore holding a main committee meeting outside London. An alternative approach had been identified. DPTAC had been invited to take part in a regional forum in the South West in December. Vidur Dindayal and Sean Bolton have offered to take part and see if it would be a successful mechanism for engaging with local people. Neil thanked Sean & Vidur for volunteering and looked forward to reading their report.
30. Roger Hewitt informed members that as of this morning the minutes of Equality 2025's last meeting had not been placed on their website. It was agreed to ask them to make the minutes available.
Action Point 3: Secretariat to write to Equalities 2025 asking them to make their minutes available on their website.
Action Point 4: Vidur & Sean to provide members with a written report on their visit to the South West.
Agenda item 5: Response to Cabinet Office Consultation on Consultations
31. Neil advised members that the consultation was reviewing policies and guidance set out in the Cabinet Office's Code of Practice on Consultation published in 2001. The latest consultation was highly relevant to DPTAC's work. If the principles of the Code were thoroughly observed then the work of members and the secretariat would be much easier. Improving the Code would make matters easier.
32. Neil suggested that DPTAC should draw on the good practice already established with the Department for Transport, and ensure that it was better observed and widely followed. The draft response, which had benefited from members' comments, concentrated on defending the 12 week consultation period, seeking more not less consultation and challenged the idea of a fast track process under which Ministers might bypass full consultation in some circumstances. He invited further comments from members.
33. Wendy Morrell pointed out that although the consultation response made reference to Guide Dogs and Assistance Dogs it made specific reference to toilet facilities/designated areas for Guide Dogs. Wendy thought a reference to Assistance Dogs needing those facilities was required. This was agreed.
34. Kath Phipps was concerned that some of the language used by the Cabinet Office in its communication support section was outdated. She agreed to provide the Secretariat with suitable form of words.
35. Roger Hewitt noted that consultation was not the same as involvement, and that DPTAC should aspire to greater levels of engagement than merely consultation.
36. Dai Powell reminded members of the excellent feedback DPTAC and other consultees had received in response to the recent Transport Plan for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympics Games consultation and thought it would be good if similar feedback was given following all consultations.
37. It was agreed the Secretariat and Chair would incorporate any further comments from members received by the 20th September deadline into the final DPTAC response.
Action point 5: Kath to provide the Secretariat with a suitable form of words.
Action Point 6: The Secretary and Chair to incorporate late comments into the final DPTAC response.
Agenda item 6: Central Government's Disability Equality Scheme
38. Neil thanked Grahame Lawson for his work in drafting DPTAC's main response to the scheme.
39. Neil advised members that this had been an interesting exercise. However the level of interest shown by other government departments in entering into further dialogue with DPTAC had been variable.
40. The Permanent Secretary for Department for Transport had agreed to meet Neil to discuss the scheme and other issues. Neil and Working Group Chairs proposed to discuss any further action on transport issues with officials of Department for Transport as a standing item in all working group agendas. In terms of cross cutting issues, members needed to think about what cross cutting issues required more consideration with departmental officials and how to achieve this.
41. Neil further advised members that the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment had not entirely welcomed what they considered to be criticism of their sponsorship of the Inclusive Environment Group (IEG).
42. Neil asked members on the IEG Group if DPTAC's comments had had a positive effect. In addition, Neil wished to know what action needed to be taken in respect of other government departments.
43. Grahame advised members that he had looked at other departments to see how they dealt with transport issues. Although many of them included transport issues, departments were under no obligation to work across Whitehall.
44. Vidur wondered whether there was an opportunity to address a meeting of all Whitehall's Permanent Secretaries providing them with a short presentation on DPTAC's aims and objectives.
45. Neil advised Vidur that a meeting was being arranged between himself and the Permanent Secretary for Department for Transport to discuss that and other issues. He promised to give a feedback to members on the outcome of his discussion with the Permanent Secretary.
Action point 7: Neil to report back to members on his discussion with the permanent secretary.
Agenda item 7: Reports from DPTAC Chair and Working Group Chairs
46. Neil hoped members had found the written reports useful. They were an important part of DPTAC's accountability to members but they would only work if members read and commented on them.
47. Neil advised members that as a result of him writing to key contacts he expected to see Bronwyn Hill, Director General - City and Regional Networks Group in Department for Transport (which included the Accessibility and Equality Unit), Robert Devereux, the Permanent Secretary and Rosie Winterton MP, Minister of State for Transport.
48. Kath Phipps reported that she and Andy Kirby had attended a meeting of the Olympic Accessible Transport Panel where she made a presentation on way-finding. Mark Todd, Principal Access & Inclusion Officer for the Olympic Delivery Authority, has agreed to take her recommendations forward to develop proposal for research specifically focussed at the Olympics.
49. Dai Powell thanked Grahame Lawson for his contribution to DPTAC's response to the Draft Local Transport Bill. He also advised members that the Transport Select Committee appeared to have accepted many of DPTAC's recommendations made at the hearing earlier in the summer.
50. Grahame thought that much of the work of the Personal Mobility and Local Authority working group over the last couple of months had been responding to consultations. It was important that all DPTAC members, not just those sitting on the relevant groups, had the opportunity to contribute to the consultation process.
51. Ann Bates highlighted two areas of work. She had had meetings with Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) to discuss the new 'Thameslink' St Pancras station in London. The consultation process had been very disappointing. At a meeting in September CTRL had said that the finishing work on the station had been completed, so were unable to accommodate DPTAC's recommendations. Anne had recently seen a poster advertising the opening of the station in December.
52. On a positive note, Ann advised members that funding had been secured for developing training for boarding guidance, which was about assistance for wheelchair users for getting safely on/off the ramps. It was agreed to include the needs of wheelchair users with assistance dogs.
53. Tomi Jones expressed his frustration at the stance taken by the British Standards Institute (BSI) with their demand for payment for allowing DPTAC to use their standards in its consultation document on guidance for accessible shipping services. Andy Kirby noted that the BSI requirement for password protected access to the consultation would have severely restricted its accessibility to disabled people.
54. It was agreed that DPTAC should make its views known to BSI on those restrictions.
Action point 8: Secretariat to write to BSI about their restrictions.
Agenda item 8: Progress Report on 2007-08 Work Programme
55. Neil reported that 20 of DPTAC's 26 tasks were under way. Four of those that were not were research tasks which would not be funded this year.
56. DPTAC had completed more consultations than this time last year. In part this was because DPTAC was engaging more in pre-consultation. Some, like the draft Local Transport Bill, the draft Equalities Bill, and the Blue Badge Strategic Review had been detailed and extensive.
Agenda item 9. Transport Issues in Northern Ireland, Wales & Scotland
57. Neil advised members that over recent meetings it had been his intention to make more use of DPTAC observers by inviting them to report briefly on what was happening in their areas of concern.
58. Emma Sinclair, Executive Secretary, Mobility Access Committee Scotland (MACS), informed members that MACS was starting its recruitment process. Its Surface Working Group was looking into the ScotRail disabled group and was also feeding into the (Scotland) concessionary fares review.
59. To complement DPTAC's maritime guidance MACS was going to research the accessibility requirements of ferries serving the smaller islands.
60. On the Passenger Transport Users Committee there was very little to report, though they were dealing with bus complaints and developing a bus operator's charter, which they hoped operators would sign up to. The Scottish Executive was conducting a comprehensive spending review.
61. Research into the abuse of parking bays would be published early next month.
62. Gregor Kerr, Northern Ireland Transport Advisory Committee (NITAC), informed members that Northern Ireland's Minister for Transport was a Sinn Fein member with a strong interest in equalities, including disabled people. Unlike the rest of the UK Northern Ireland's main transport provider was Government owned. They were moving the agenda away from physical accessibility; the problems were now softer issues such as a lack of information and a lack of confidence in travelling by public transport. They were trying new initiatives to encourage disabled people to use public transport including buddying schemes.
63. Currently, Northern Ireland was not covered by the Disability Discrimination Act, though a decision to sign up to it was with the First Minister. There were problems with accessibility on airlines and ferries though these were reserved matters for the UK parliament.
Agenda item 10: Accessibility and Equalities Unit report
64. Neil advised members that at their request the AEU had produced a shorter, more focused report than in the past. As a consequence, in future if members wished AEU to report on specific items they would need to be notified beforehand.
65. Nigel Dotchin advised members that changes to the eligibility criteria for the Blue Badge had been introduced. This centred on upper limb disability. Eligibility would now be judged on the ability to use a parking meter rather than the ability to turn a steering wheel.
66. DPTAC's comments to the Single Equality Bill consultation had been noted. The consultation had closed and recommendations were being considered by the Minister.
67. The AEU would be launching a report on travel training shortly. The unit was also reviewing its relationship with stakeholders, including DPTAC.
Action point 9: Members to notify the Secretariat of any issues that they would like to be covered in AEUs next report.
Agenda item 11: Briefing on Honours
68. Neil welcomed Jimi Adeleye, Head of the Equalities Branch of the AEU, and invited him to update members on the systems for honours. Neil understood that in future AEU would like DPTAC to be more involved in the process.
69. Jimi highlighted the main areas covered in his paper. Of main importance to DPTAC was that the Prime Minister had said in a letter to all government departments that the honours system needed to recognise both achievement and service to the community and the nation.
70. AEU was putting together nominations for the Queen's Birthday Honours 2008. Jimi invited DPTAC to make nominations but advised them that the deadline was the 17th September.
Action point 10: Members to advise the Secretariat of any suggested candidates for honours.
Agenda item 12: Briefing on launch events
71. Neil invited Keith Richards and Dai Powell to advise members of the onboard wheelchair launch and the revised small bus specification respectively.
72. Keith advised members that the onboard wheelchair specification was being launched on the 21st September at the Civil Aviation Authority's office in London. It was hoped that Jim Fitzpatrick, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport, and Neil Betteridge would both speak at the event.
73. Keith emphasised the importance of the specification, he stressed that it was not prescriptive as DPTAC wanted to encourage innovation. He thanked all the members who had taken part in the 'mock up' trials.
74. Dai advised members that the revised small bus specification would be launched in November at the Community Transport Association's Conference in Manchester's GMEX. Rosie Winterton MP, Minister of State for Transport would be addressing the conference on the 8th November and would recommend the specification to the audience. However, Neil would make the official launch of the specification at the same conference the previous day, the 7th November.
Agenda item 13: Agreement of DPTAC Meeting Calendar for 2008-10
75. Members were asked to agree the calendar previously issued to them. Neil assured members that he and the Secretariat had done their best to accommodate the wishes of Working Group Chairs and members whilst scheduling meetings.
76. Neil also reminded members of the annual drinks reception and Christmas meal at the Riverbank Park Plaza after the main committee meeting of the 13th December. The Minister, Rosie Winterton, would be attending the drinks reception. Members were asked to let the Secretariat know as soon as possible if they were attending the meeting, reception and meal and if they required a room for the night.
77. Members agreed the calendar.
Action point 11: Members to advise the Secretariat of their intention to take part in Christmas drinks and meal and requirements for a room.
Agenda item 14: Any other business
78. Neil stated that he had not been notified of any items of other business to be discussed but invited members to raise any items they might have.
79. Grahame was concerned about how uniformly grey the area around Parliament was looking, with poor colour contrast in the temporary barriers that had been erected. He asked whether Westminster City Council had consulted anybody. Andy Kirby was not aware of any consultation, though the council had consulted on recent initiatives around the area of the Home Office.
80. Marilyn Lister suggested that DPTAC should develop a view on the pledge by Conservative mayoral candidate Boris Johnson MP, to abolish London's articulated buses.
81. Neil finished the meeting by formally thanking Andy Kirby for his hard work, enthusiasm and good advice that he had given members in his four years as secretary of DPTAC. Neil wished Andy the best of luck with his future career.
Dates of Main Committee meetings 2007
82. The next main committee meeting would be held on 13 December 2007.
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